Single Chip Lua Prospects

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

Odd Bogdan – When I tried it gave me Digi-Key and checking directly on their site confirmed stock. Checking the part number – AT91SAM7X512-AU? Mouser however was on 17 weeks lead time, but they do have the AT91SAM7SE512-AU, which has reduced RAM (32kB), but could be used in the interim for development .

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 08:45
To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Asko!

Mouser & DigiKey have the AT91SAM7X512 100 pin LQFP at $15. It looks
absolutely ideal for our purposes, especially with the 128kB RAM.

I'll look into this in more detail. Anyone got anything against this chip?

A small correction to one of my previous messages: the _LQFP_ variant of AT91SAM7X512 is non stocked (just checked again on findchips.com). You can still find the BGA version, but I can't do too much with that. And I know I'm not the only one.

Best,
Bogdan

- John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Asko Kauppi
> Sent: 22 June 2009 21:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
>

> I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:
>
> > ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> > AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT32UC3A3256 256 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT91FR40162SB 2 MB Flash and 256 kb SRAM.
> > Note that this is a multichip package in a 10 x 10 mm BGA
> > and the periperals set is sort of outdated.
> >
> > And by not needing to use those pins for external RAM interface, they
> > would be spared for other usage.
>
> BGA is perhaps a no-go. AT32UC3A3256 is what we're trying to get.
> AT91SAM7X512 some of you may have experience on? (or is it a
> newcomer, since it's marked as "sampling")
>
> AT32UC3A3256
> - SRAM 128K
> - Flash 256K
> - IO pins 110
> - UARTs 4
> - USB
> - package LQFP 144 (or TFBGA 144)
> - 66 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32072S.pdf
>
> AT91SAM7X512
> - package LQFP 100
> - Integrated Ethernet, USB _and_ CAN
> - Flash 512K
> - SRAM 128K
> - Status: sampling
> - 55 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6120s.pdf
>
> -asko
>
>
> James Snyder kirjoitti 22.6.2009 kello 21:42:
>
> > This is true, however I think the non-custom parts actually go a
> > pretty good distance towards what we're after. Many of the chips on
> > these devel boards are kind-of "kitchen sink" chips that have way
> more
> > peripherals than are needed for any one single application.
> >
> > It seems like the problem is that we're asking for something that's
> > even a bit more general, but not that much more. Since these general
> > parts already have most of the stuff we need and they're still not
> > much more than $10 by themselves, I think we should be able to find
> > something that meets a reasonable minimum set of peripherals, and,
> > maybe, requires one or two added external chips at the max.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to start by speccing out some sort of common
> > set of peripheral needs that would be satisfactory for a Lua stamp,
> > and then go from there?
> >
> > Here's what I, personally, would like:
> > - somewhere near 40 pins out, most/all of which can be used for GPIO,
> > or configured for various peripherals
> > - output pins are dip, compatible with standard-sized breadboards
> > - 8+ A/D channels (10-bit, or 12-bit if possible)
> > - 2+ D/A (10 or 12 bit)
> > - Ethernet w/ PHY or CAN
> > - 2+ USART
> > - 2+ I2C
> > - can be powered over USB
> > - 64+K of SRAM
> > - 512+ K of Flash
> > - optionally powered and programmed over a USB link
> >
> > I'd be happy with more, but I think this should work for a wide range
> > of applications. My first inclination if any one particular thing
> > could be added would be: as much RAM as possible.
> >
> > -jsnyder
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Dado Sutter wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Louie,
> >> The truth, and I think you made it very clear in your message, is
> >> that that chips are made to profitable targeted applications and not
> >> to fullfill our dreams on a general-purpose complete and cheap
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Dado
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:21, Louis Mamakos <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:34 AM, John Hind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dado, you had me googling "gronwup embedded environment" before
> >>> realising it was a typo!
> >>>
> >>> My posting was more born of frustration that the ARM
> >>> microcontroller industry seems to have advanced so little in the
> >>> last six months compared to the rate the X86 market moves on. I was
> >>> really hoping someone would point me at some hope the next six
> >>> months would bring me what I was looking for. I do not want to give
> >>> up on distributed processing architectures yet, but it is hard when
> >>> just one processing node ends up nearly as expensive as a central
> >>> machine capable of handling the entire requirement!
> >>>
> >>> It continues to baffle me that the industry does not get the market
> >>> for high-functionality, highly integrated, low pin-count devices -
> >>> this seems so obvious for intelligent sensors and actuators. Even
> >>> in the 8-bit field, Microchip makes lovely 6- and 8- pin chips
> >>> ideal for embedding in, for example, a single limit switch, but
> >>> they have no serial comms capability! You are up to 16 pin devices
> >>> before that starts to appear. In the ARM market, large on-chip
> >>> memory seems to go hand in hand with high pin-count and therefore
> >>> complex and expensive packages and PCBs.
> >>
> >> In the embedded space, parts get built to support specific
> >> (hopefully volume) applications. This is why you might not see
> >> parts with a large number of on-chip peripherals, or lots of memory,
> >> etc. In a previous professional gig, we built VoIP devices that
> >> shipped in moderate volume (1M-2M units/year). This is a nice
> >> "sweet spot" for a part manufacturer who would build a device
> >> targeted to that application which also happens to be price
> >> sensitive. You don't want to ship parts out with unused peripherals
> >> or lots of extra memory because an extra $2 of cost per unit turns
> >> into a pretty noticeable numbers at 1,000,000 units shipped.
> >>
> >> If you're only talking about building a few hundred units, then the
> >> extra cost isn't really as much of a consideration, especially when
> >> you might be able to reduce the one-time engineering expense by
> >> optimizing time spent vs. "extra" hardware.
> >>
> >> I think that Marvell is building some interesting higher-end parts,
> >> with perhaps a lack of GPIO I/O, A/D, etc. capability but with
> >> networking, etc. Otherwise, you're looking to repurpose devices
> >> built for some targeted applications.
> >>
> >> louie
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elua-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by BogdanM

You're right, it seems that now it is available at Digikey. My mistake, I only looked at Mouser this time.

Best,
Bogdan

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Odd Bogdan – When I tried it gave me Digi-Key and checking directly on their site confirmed stock. Checking the part number – AT91SAM7X512-AU? Mouser however was on 17 weeks lead time, but they do have the AT91SAM7SE512-AU, which has reduced RAM (32kB), but could be used in the interim for development .

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 08:45

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Asko!

Mouser & DigiKey have the AT91SAM7X512 100 pin LQFP at $15. It looks
absolutely ideal for our purposes, especially with the 128kB RAM.

I'll look into this in more detail. Anyone got anything against this chip?

A small correction to one of my previous messages: the _LQFP_ variant of AT91SAM7X512 is non stocked (just checked again on findchips.com). You can still find the BGA version, but I can't do too much with that. And I know I'm not the only one.

Best,
Bogdan

- John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Asko Kauppi
> Sent: 22 June 2009 21:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
>

> I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:
>
> > ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> > AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT32UC3A3256 256 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT91FR40162SB 2 MB Flash and 256 kb SRAM.
> > Note that this is a multichip package in a 10 x 10 mm BGA
> > and the periperals set is sort of outdated.
> >
> > And by not needing to use those pins for external RAM interface, they
> > would be spared for other usage.
>
> BGA is perhaps a no-go. AT32UC3A3256 is what we're trying to get.
> AT91SAM7X512 some of you may have experience on? (or is it a
> newcomer, since it's marked as "sampling")
>
> AT32UC3A3256
> - SRAM 128K
> - Flash 256K
> - IO pins 110
> - UARTs 4
> - USB
> - package LQFP 144 (or TFBGA 144)
> - 66 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32072S.pdf
>
> AT91SAM7X512
> - package LQFP 100
> - Integrated Ethernet, USB _and_ CAN
> - Flash 512K
> - SRAM 128K
> - Status: sampling
> - 55 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6120s.pdf
>
> -asko
>
>
> James Snyder kirjoitti 22.6.2009 kello 21:42:
>
> > This is true, however I think the non-custom parts actually go a
> > pretty good distance towards what we're after. Many of the chips on
> > these devel boards are kind-of "kitchen sink" chips that have way
> more
> > peripherals than are needed for any one single application.
> >
> > It seems like the problem is that we're asking for something that's
> > even a bit more general, but not that much more. Since these general
> > parts already have most of the stuff we need and they're still not
> > much more than $10 by themselves, I think we should be able to find
> > something that meets a reasonable minimum set of peripherals, and,
> > maybe, requires one or two added external chips at the max.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to start by speccing out some sort of common
> > set of peripheral needs that would be satisfactory for a Lua stamp,
> > and then go from there?
> >
> > Here's what I, personally, would like:
> > - somewhere near 40 pins out, most/all of which can be used for GPIO,
> > or configured for various peripherals
> > - output pins are dip, compatible with standard-sized breadboards
> > - 8+ A/D channels (10-bit, or 12-bit if possible)
> > - 2+ D/A (10 or 12 bit)
> > - Ethernet w/ PHY or CAN
> > - 2+ USART
> > - 2+ I2C
> > - can be powered over USB
> > - 64+K of SRAM
> > - 512+ K of Flash
> > - optionally powered and programmed over a USB link
> >
> > I'd be happy with more, but I think this should work for a wide range
> > of applications. My first inclination if any one particular thing
> > could be added would be: as much RAM as possible.
> >
> > -jsnyder
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Dado Sutter wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Louie,
> >> The truth, and I think you made it very clear in your message, is
> >> that that chips are made to profitable targeted applications and not
> >> to fullfill our dreams on a general-purpose complete and cheap
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Dado
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:21, Louis Mamakos <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:34 AM, John Hind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dado, you had me googling "gronwup embedded environment" before
> >>> realising it was a typo!
> >>>
> >>> My posting was more born of frustration that the ARM
> >>> microcontroller industry seems to have advanced so little in the
> >>> last six months compared to the rate the X86 market moves on. I was
> >>> really hoping someone would point me at some hope the next six
> >>> months would bring me what I was looking for. I do not want to give
> >>> up on distributed processing architectures yet, but it is hard when
> >>> just one processing node ends up nearly as expensive as a central
> >>> machine capable of handling the entire requirement!
> >>>
> >>> It continues to baffle me that the industry does not get the market
> >>> for high-functionality, highly integrated, low pin-count devices -
> >>> this seems so obvious for intelligent sensors and actuators. Even
> >>> in the 8-bit field, Microchip makes lovely 6- and 8- pin chips
> >>> ideal for embedding in, for example, a single limit switch, but
> >>> they have no serial comms capability! You are up to 16 pin devices
> >>> before that starts to appear. In the ARM market, large on-chip
> >>> memory seems to go hand in hand with high pin-count and therefore
> >>> complex and expensive packages and PCBs.
> >>
> >> In the embedded space, parts get built to support specific
> >> (hopefully volume) applications. This is why you might not see
> >> parts with a large number of on-chip peripherals, or lots of memory,
> >> etc. In a previous professional gig, we built VoIP devices that
> >> shipped in moderate volume (1M-2M units/year). This is a nice
> >> "sweet spot" for a part manufacturer who would build a device
> >> targeted to that application which also happens to be price
> >> sensitive. You don't want to ship parts out with unused peripherals
> >> or lots of extra memory because an extra $2 of cost per unit turns
> >> into a pretty noticeable numbers at 1,000,000 units shipped.
> >>
> >> If you're only talking about building a few hundred units, then the
> >> extra cost isn't really as much of a consideration, especially when
> >> you might be able to reduce the one-time engineering expense by
> >> optimizing time spent vs. "extra" hardware.
> >>
> >> I think that Marvell is building some interesting higher-end parts,
> >> with perhaps a lack of GPIO I/O, A/D, etc. capability but with
> >> networking, etc. Otherwise, you're looking to repurpose devices
> >> built for some targeted applications.
> >>
> >> louie
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elua-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

This has been very illuminating and useful (and has gone a long way to restore the faith!) – but we rapidly move from too little choice to too much! How to decide which to go with? One consideration would be which family has further on-chip memory extensions in the pipeline – the STR912 family seems to have flash extensions up to 2GB on the card, but nothing further on RAM.

Do you know if anywhere on the internet there is a unified parametric search on ARM chips? It seems to be very hard to find what is available without looking individually in every family from every manufacturer!

Also do you know what chip the mbed stamp uses? If they are in a family with the possibility to substitute higher memory variants now or soon this would be a good option.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 09:31
To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

You're right, it seems that now it is available at Digikey. My mistake, I only looked at Mouser this time.

Best,
Bogdan

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 08:45

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

- John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Asko Kauppi
> Sent: 22 June 2009 21:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
>

> I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:
>
> > ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> > AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT32UC3A3256 256 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT91FR40162SB 2 MB Flash and 256 kb SRAM.
> > Note that this is a multichip package in a 10 x 10 mm BGA
> > and the periperals set is sort of outdated.
> >
> > And by not needing to use those pins for external RAM interface, they
> > would be spared for other usage.
>
> BGA is perhaps a no-go. AT32UC3A3256 is what we're trying to get.
> AT91SAM7X512 some of you may have experience on? (or is it a
> newcomer, since it's marked as "sampling")
>
> AT32UC3A3256
> - SRAM 128K
> - Flash 256K
> - IO pins 110
> - UARTs 4
> - USB
> - package LQFP 144 (or TFBGA 144)
> - 66 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32072S.pdf
>
> AT91SAM7X512
> - package LQFP 100
> - Integrated Ethernet, USB _and_ CAN
> - Flash 512K
> - SRAM 128K
> - Status: sampling
> - 55 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6120s.pdf
>
> -asko
>
>
> James Snyder kirjoitti 22.6.2009 kello 21:42:
>
> > This is true, however I think the non-custom parts actually go a
> > pretty good distance towards what we're after. Many of the chips on
> > these devel boards are kind-of "kitchen sink" chips that have way
> more
> > peripherals than are needed for any one single application.
> >
> > It seems like the problem is that we're asking for something that's
> > even a bit more general, but not that much more. Since these general
> > parts already have most of the stuff we need and they're still not
> > much more than $10 by themselves, I think we should be able to find
> > something that meets a reasonable minimum set of peripherals, and,
> > maybe, requires one or two added external chips at the max.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to start by speccing out some sort of common
> > set of peripheral needs that would be satisfactory for a Lua stamp,
> > and then go from there?
> >
> > Here's what I, personally, would like:
> > - somewhere near 40 pins out, most/all of which can be used for GPIO,
> > or configured for various peripherals
> > - output pins are dip, compatible with standard-sized breadboards
> > - 8+ A/D channels (10-bit, or 12-bit if possible)
> > - 2+ D/A (10 or 12 bit)
> > - Ethernet w/ PHY or CAN
> > - 2+ USART
> > - 2+ I2C
> > - can be powered over USB
> > - 64+K of SRAM
> > - 512+ K of Flash
> > - optionally powered and programmed over a USB link
> >
> > I'd be happy with more, but I think this should work for a wide range
> > of applications. My first inclination if any one particular thing
> > could be added would be: as much RAM as possible.
> >
> > -jsnyder
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Dado Sutter wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Louie,
> >> The truth, and I think you made it very clear in your message, is
> >> that that chips are made to profitable targeted applications and not
> >> to fullfill our dreams on a general-purpose complete and cheap
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Dado
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:21, Louis Mamakos <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:34 AM, John Hind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dado, you had me googling "gronwup embedded environment" before
> >>> realising it was a typo!
> >>>
> >>> My posting was more born of frustration that the ARM
> >>> microcontroller industry seems to have advanced so little in the
> >>> last six months compared to the rate the X86 market moves on. I was
> >>> really hoping someone would point me at some hope the next six
> >>> months would bring me what I was looking for. I do not want to give
> >>> up on distributed processing architectures yet, but it is hard when
> >>> just one processing node ends up nearly as expensive as a central
> >>> machine capable of handling the entire requirement!
> >>>
> >>> It continues to baffle me that the industry does not get the market
> >>> for high-functionality, highly integrated, low pin-count devices -
> >>> this seems so obvious for intelligent sensors and actuators. Even
> >>> in the 8-bit field, Microchip makes lovely 6- and 8- pin chips
> >>> ideal for embedding in, for example, a single limit switch, but
> >>> they have no serial comms capability! You are up to 16 pin devices
> >>> before that starts to appear. In the ARM market, large on-chip
> >>> memory seems to go hand in hand with high pin-count and therefore
> >>> complex and expensive packages and PCBs.
> >>
> >> In the embedded space, parts get built to support specific
> >> (hopefully volume) applications. This is why you might not see
> >> parts with a large number of on-chip peripherals, or lots of memory,
> >> etc. In a previous professional gig, we built VoIP devices that
> >> shipped in moderate volume (1M-2M units/year). This is a nice
> >> "sweet spot" for a part manufacturer who would build a device
> >> targeted to that application which also happens to be price
> >> sensitive. You don't want to ship parts out with unused peripherals
> >> or lots of extra memory because an extra $2 of cost per unit turns
> >> into a pretty noticeable numbers at 1,000,000 units shipped.
> >>
> >> If you're only talking about building a few hundred units, then the
> >> extra cost isn't really as much of a consideration, especially when
> >> you might be able to reduce the one-time engineering expense by
> >> optimizing time spent vs. "extra" hardware.
> >>
> >> I think that Marvell is building some interesting higher-end parts,
> >> with perhaps a lack of GPIO I/O, A/D, etc. capability but with
> >> networking, etc. Otherwise, you're looking to repurpose devices
> >> built for some targeted applications.
> >>
> >> louie
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elua-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by BogdanM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:03 PM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

This has been very illuminating and useful (and has gone a long way to restore the faith!) – but we rapidly move from too little choice to too much! How to decide which to go with? One consideration would be which family has further on-chip memory extensions in the pipeline – the STR912 family seems to have flash extensions up to 2GB on the card, but nothing further on RAM.

It does, it supports SRAM and PSRAM : http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/14064.pdf

Do you know if anywhere on the internet there is a unified parametric search on ARM chips? It seems to be very hard to find what is available without looking individually in every family from every manufacturer!

EDN has something called "the annual EDN microprocessor and microcontroller directory":

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=MPD&industryid=null&year=2008&referralid=93

This is the best reference I know on the subject (although not quite what you're looking for).

Best,
Bogdan

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 09:31

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

You're right, it seems that now it is available at Digikey. My mistake, I only looked at Mouser this time.

Best,
Bogdan

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Odd Bogdan – When I tried it gave me Digi-Key and checking directly on their site confirmed stock. Checking the part number – AT91SAM7X512-AU? Mouser however was on 17 weeks lead time, but they do have the AT91SAM7SE512-AU, which has reduced RAM (32kB), but could be used in the interim for development .

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 08:45

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Asko!

Mouser & DigiKey have the AT91SAM7X512 100 pin LQFP at $15. It looks
absolutely ideal for our purposes, especially with the 128kB RAM.

I'll look into this in more detail. Anyone got anything against this chip?

A small correction to one of my previous messages: the _LQFP_ variant of AT91SAM7X512 is non stocked (just checked again on findchips.com). You can still find the BGA version, but I can't do too much with that. And I know I'm not the only one.

Best,
Bogdan

- John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Asko Kauppi
> Sent: 22 June 2009 21:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
>

> I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:
>
> > ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> > AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT32UC3A3256 256 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT91FR40162SB 2 MB Flash and 256 kb SRAM.
> > Note that this is a multichip package in a 10 x 10 mm BGA
> > and the periperals set is sort of outdated.
> >
> > And by not needing to use those pins for external RAM interface, they
> > would be spared for other usage.
>
> BGA is perhaps a no-go. AT32UC3A3256 is what we're trying to get.
> AT91SAM7X512 some of you may have experience on? (or is it a
> newcomer, since it's marked as "sampling")
>
> AT32UC3A3256
> - SRAM 128K
> - Flash 256K
> - IO pins 110
> - UARTs 4
> - USB
> - package LQFP 144 (or TFBGA 144)
> - 66 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32072S.pdf
>
> AT91SAM7X512
> - package LQFP 100
> - Integrated Ethernet, USB _and_ CAN
> - Flash 512K
> - SRAM 128K
> - Status: sampling
> - 55 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6120s.pdf
>
> -asko
>
>
> James Snyder kirjoitti 22.6.2009 kello 21:42:
>
> > This is true, however I think the non-custom parts actually go a
> > pretty good distance towards what we're after. Many of the chips on
> > these devel boards are kind-of "kitchen sink" chips that have way
> more
> > peripherals than are needed for any one single application.
> >
> > It seems like the problem is that we're asking for something that's
> > even a bit more general, but not that much more. Since these general
> > parts already have most of the stuff we need and they're still not
> > much more than $10 by themselves, I think we should be able to find
> > something that meets a reasonable minimum set of peripherals, and,
> > maybe, requires one or two added external chips at the max.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to start by speccing out some sort of common
> > set of peripheral needs that would be satisfactory for a Lua stamp,
> > and then go from there?
> >
> > Here's what I, personally, would like:
> > - somewhere near 40 pins out, most/all of which can be used for GPIO,
> > or configured for various peripherals
> > - output pins are dip, compatible with standard-sized breadboards
> > - 8+ A/D channels (10-bit, or 12-bit if possible)
> > - 2+ D/A (10 or 12 bit)
> > - Ethernet w/ PHY or CAN
> > - 2+ USART
> > - 2+ I2C
> > - can be powered over USB
> > - 64+K of SRAM
> > - 512+ K of Flash
> > - optionally powered and programmed over a USB link
> >
> > I'd be happy with more, but I think this should work for a wide range
> > of applications. My first inclination if any one particular thing
> > could be added would be: as much RAM as possible.
> >
> > -jsnyder
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Dado Sutter wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Louie,
> >> The truth, and I think you made it very clear in your message, is
> >> that that chips are made to profitable targeted applications and not
> >> to fullfill our dreams on a general-purpose complete and cheap
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Dado
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:21, Louis Mamakos <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:34 AM, John Hind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dado, you had me googling "gronwup embedded environment" before
> >>> realising it was a typo!
> >>>
> >>> My posting was more born of frustration that the ARM
> >>> microcontroller industry seems to have advanced so little in the
> >>> last six months compared to the rate the X86 market moves on. I was
> >>> really hoping someone would point me at some hope the next six
> >>> months would bring me what I was looking for. I do not want to give
> >>> up on distributed processing architectures yet, but it is hard when
> >>> just one processing node ends up nearly as expensive as a central
> >>> machine capable of handling the entire requirement!
> >>>
> >>> It continues to baffle me that the industry does not get the market
> >>> for high-functionality, highly integrated, low pin-count devices -
> >>> this seems so obvious for intelligent sensors and actuators. Even
> >>> in the 8-bit field, Microchip makes lovely 6- and 8- pin chips
> >>> ideal for embedding in, for example, a single limit switch, but
> >>> they have no serial comms capability! You are up to 16 pin devices
> >>> before that starts to appear. In the ARM market, large on-chip
> >>> memory seems to go hand in hand with high pin-count and therefore
> >>> complex and expensive packages and PCBs.
> >>
> >> In the embedded space, parts get built to support specific
> >> (hopefully volume) applications. This is why you might not see
> >> parts with a large number of on-chip peripherals, or lots of memory,
> >> etc. In a previous professional gig, we built VoIP devices that
> >> shipped in moderate volume (1M-2M units/year). This is a nice
> >> "sweet spot" for a part manufacturer who would build a device
> >> targeted to that application which also happens to be price
> >> sensitive. You don't want to ship parts out with unused peripherals
> >> or lots of extra memory because an extra $2 of cost per unit turns
> >> into a pretty noticeable numbers at 1,000,000 units shipped.
> >>
> >> If you're only talking about building a few hundred units, then the
> >> extra cost isn't really as much of a consideration, especially when
> >> you might be able to reduce the one-time engineering expense by
> >> optimizing time spent vs. "extra" hardware.
> >>
> >> I think that Marvell is building some interesting higher-end parts,
> >> with perhaps a lack of GPIO I/O, A/D, etc. capability but with
> >> networking, etc. Otherwise, you're looking to repurpose devices
> >> built for some targeted applications.
> >>
> >> louie
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elua-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

It does, it supports SRAM and PSRAM : http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/14064.pdf

I meant “on chip” – as we discussed earlier, external memory multiplies the problems because of the large number of pins used and the complexity of the PCB. I was looking for a family that promised future pin-compatible enhanced on-chip memory that could be used on the same board by simple part substitution.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 09:31

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

You're right, it seems that now it is available at Digikey. My mistake, I only looked at Mouser this time.

Best,
Bogdan

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Odd Bogdan – When I tried it gave me Digi-Key and checking directly on their site confirmed stock. Checking the part number – AT91SAM7X512-AU? Mouser however was on 17 weeks lead time, but they do have the AT91SAM7SE512-AU, which has reduced RAM (32kB), but could be used in the interim for development .

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 23 June 2009 08:45

To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Asko!

Mouser & DigiKey have the AT91SAM7X512 100 pin LQFP at $15. It looks
absolutely ideal for our purposes, especially with the 128kB RAM.

I'll look into this in more detail. Anyone got anything against this chip?

A small correction to one of my previous messages: the _LQFP_ variant of AT91SAM7X512 is non stocked (just checked again on findchips.com). You can still find the BGA version, but I can't do too much with that. And I know I'm not the only one.

Best,
Bogdan

- John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Asko Kauppi
> Sent: 22 June 2009 21:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
>

> I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:
>
> > ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> > AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT32UC3A3256 256 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM
> > AT91FR40162SB 2 MB Flash and 256 kb SRAM.
> > Note that this is a multichip package in a 10 x 10 mm BGA
> > and the periperals set is sort of outdated.
> >
> > And by not needing to use those pins for external RAM interface, they
> > would be spared for other usage.
>
> BGA is perhaps a no-go. AT32UC3A3256 is what we're trying to get.
> AT91SAM7X512 some of you may have experience on? (or is it a
> newcomer, since it's marked as "sampling")
>
> AT32UC3A3256
> - SRAM 128K
> - Flash 256K
> - IO pins 110
> - UARTs 4
> - USB
> - package LQFP 144 (or TFBGA 144)
> - 66 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32072S.pdf
>
> AT91SAM7X512
> - package LQFP 100
> - Integrated Ethernet, USB _and_ CAN
> - Flash 512K
> - SRAM 128K
> - Status: sampling
> - 55 MHz max.
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6120s.pdf
>
> -asko
>
>
> James Snyder kirjoitti 22.6.2009 kello 21:42:
>
> > This is true, however I think the non-custom parts actually go a
> > pretty good distance towards what we're after. Many of the chips on
> > these devel boards are kind-of "kitchen sink" chips that have way
> more
> > peripherals than are needed for any one single application.
> >
> > It seems like the problem is that we're asking for something that's
> > even a bit more general, but not that much more. Since these general
> > parts already have most of the stuff we need and they're still not
> > much more than $10 by themselves, I think we should be able to find
> > something that meets a reasonable minimum set of peripherals, and,
> > maybe, requires one or two added external chips at the max.
> >
> > It might be a good idea to start by speccing out some sort of common
> > set of peripheral needs that would be satisfactory for a Lua stamp,
> > and then go from there?
> >
> > Here's what I, personally, would like:
> > - somewhere near 40 pins out, most/all of which can be used for GPIO,
> > or configured for various peripherals
> > - output pins are dip, compatible with standard-sized breadboards
> > - 8+ A/D channels (10-bit, or 12-bit if possible)
> > - 2+ D/A (10 or 12 bit)
> > - Ethernet w/ PHY or CAN
> > - 2+ USART
> > - 2+ I2C
> > - can be powered over USB
> > - 64+K of SRAM
> > - 512+ K of Flash
> > - optionally powered and programmed over a USB link
> >
> > I'd be happy with more, but I think this should work for a wide range
> > of applications. My first inclination if any one particular thing
> > could be added would be: as much RAM as possible.
> >
> > -jsnyder
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Dado Sutter wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Louie,
> >> The truth, and I think you made it very clear in your message, is
> >> that that chips are made to profitable targeted applications and not
> >> to fullfill our dreams on a general-purpose complete and cheap
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Dado
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:21, Louis Mamakos <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:34 AM, John Hind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dado, you had me googling "gronwup embedded environment" before
> >>> realising it was a typo!
> >>>
> >>> My posting was more born of frustration that the ARM
> >>> microcontroller industry seems to have advanced so little in the
> >>> last six months compared to the rate the X86 market moves on. I was
> >>> really hoping someone would point me at some hope the next six
> >>> months would bring me what I was looking for. I do not want to give
> >>> up on distributed processing architectures yet, but it is hard when
> >>> just one processing node ends up nearly as expensive as a central
> >>> machine capable of handling the entire requirement!
> >>>
> >>> It continues to baffle me that the industry does not get the market
> >>> for high-functionality, highly integrated, low pin-count devices -
> >>> this seems so obvious for intelligent sensors and actuators. Even
> >>> in the 8-bit field, Microchip makes lovely 6- and 8- pin chips
> >>> ideal for embedding in, for example, a single limit switch, but
> >>> they have no serial comms capability! You are up to 16 pin devices
> >>> before that starts to appear. In the ARM market, large on-chip
> >>> memory seems to go hand in hand with high pin-count and therefore
> >>> complex and expensive packages and PCBs.
> >>
> >> In the embedded space, parts get built to support specific
> >> (hopefully volume) applications. This is why you might not see
> >> parts with a large number of on-chip peripherals, or lots of memory,
> >> etc. In a previous professional gig, we built VoIP devices that
> >> shipped in moderate volume (1M-2M units/year). This is a nice
> >> "sweet spot" for a part manufacturer who would build a device
> >> targeted to that application which also happens to be price
> >> sensitive. You don't want to ship parts out with unused peripherals
> >> or lots of extra memory because an extra $2 of cost per unit turns
> >> into a pretty noticeable numbers at 1,000,000 units shipped.
> >>
> >> If you're only talking about building a few hundred units, then the
> >> extra cost isn't really as much of a consideration, especially when
> >> you might be able to reduce the one-time engineering expense by
> >> optimizing time spent vs. "extra" hardware.
> >>
> >> I think that Marvell is building some interesting higher-end parts,
> >> with perhaps a lack of GPIO I/O, A/D, etc. capability but with
> >> networking, etc. Otherwise, you're looking to repurpose devices
> >> built for some targeted applications.
> >>
> >> louie
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elua-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elua-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.mc_id=hp_go_button&KeyWords=AT91SAM7X512&x=0&y=0

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by BogdanM

On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:34 AM, Bogdan Marinescu wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:

> ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM

Very nice chip, yet virtually impossible to get. I checked many times, and none of the big distributors have it stocked. Which means that it's basically impossible for the "regular" hobbyist to get his hands on it. Still my best candidate for "eLua on a chip" though, mainly because of the RAM.

They've got it at DigiKey in the US at least:

They don't have a huge number in stock though... I guess there's not yet that much demand for parts with this much flash and RAM?

How would any of you typically prototype with a device like this? Do you use a schmartboard or something similar?

-jsnyder

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

smime.p7s (2K) Download Attachment

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

Oops... the other messages, for some reason, hadn't appeared in my mailbox when I replied :-P

-jsnyder

On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:57 AM, James Snyder wrote:

On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:34 AM, Bogdan Marinescu wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:

> ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM

Very nice chip, yet virtually impossible to get. I checked many times, and none of the big distributors have it stocked. Which means that it's basically impossible for the "regular" hobbyist to get his hands on it. Still my best candidate for "eLua on a chip" though, mainly because of the RAM.

They've got it at DigiKey in the US at least:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.mc_id=hp_go_button&KeyWords=AT91SAM7X512&x=0&y=0

They don't have a huge number in stock though... I guess there's not yet that much demand for parts with this much flash and RAM?

How would any of you typically prototype with a device like this? Do you use a schmartboard or something similar?

-jsnyder
_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

smime.p7s (2K) Download Attachment

Tony-12

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by BogdanM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:57 AM, James Snyder <[hidden email]> wrote:

They've got it at DigiKey in the US at least:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.mc_id=hp_go_button&KeyWords=AT91SAM7X512&x=0&y=0

They don't have a huge number in stock though... I guess there's not yet that much demand for parts with this much flash and RAM?

How would any of you typically prototype with a device like this? Do you use a schmartboard or something similar?

You could use a Schmart board - and if you only want to do one board, that might be the best way. However, I would do a custom PCB - 2 layer should be fine. Getting a single PCB done is still expensive; if the board is small and you only want one, Batch PCB seems like the best option; if the board is larger or you want multiple boards, there are better options. For 4 layer boards, I'd highly recommend Sierra Proto Express, but for a design without external memory, 2 layers should be enough.

To give you an idea of pricing, Batch PCB is a straight $2.50 USD per square inch; at Proto Express, pricing in small quantities doesn't vary much with size (for < 30 square inches), and is about $85 for one 2-layer PCB, and $110 total for 3 PCBs -- so it doesn't make sense to buy less than 3 PCBs from them. Pricing at most other fab houses is similar -- multiple boards are a much better value than one.

BTW, at least in the US, low volume (<25) assembly is quite pricey; it'll cost more than the components. That's why there are laser-cut stencils and toaster ovens (Sparkfun has some great resources on designing and assembling PCBs).

Bogdan -- yes, the STR9 line is still interesting. I put the Stellaris 9B in front of it because I like IEEE-1588, PWMs and QEPs, although we'll have to see about price and availability. I'm hoping price will be lower now that they're part of TI.

In some ways I think the UC3 (with high speed USB 2.0 and 128K SRAM) would make a better BASIC-Stamp competitor than a SAM7X512/STR911FAW/9B96 with Ethernet and USB. But those of who like particular chips need to get some PCBs designed (unfortunately I'm still tied up for a while with family matters and a lot of CANOpen stuff, although I should be able to help getting PCBs made).

--Tony

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by BogdanM

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'll share some part numbers recommended by my Atmel contact:

> ==> We have three chips with enough internal RAM.
> AT91SAM7X512 512 kB Flash & 128 kB SRAM

Very nice chip, yet virtually impossible to get. I checked many times, and none of the big distributors have it stocked. Which means that it's basically impossible for the "regular" hobbyist to get his hands on it. Still my best candidate for "eLua on a chip" though, mainly because of the RAM.

They've got it at DigiKey in the US at least:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.mc_id=hp_go_button&KeyWords=AT91SAM7X512&x=0&y=0

I saw that today, thank you.

How would any of you typically prototype with a device like this? Do you use a schmartboard or something similar?

LQFP to DIP adapter, then wires all the way :) Can't do PCBs at home, and our local PCB houses are very busy and quite expensive.

Best,
Bogdan

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by John Hind

----- "Tony" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:57 AM, James Snyder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

>
>
They've got it at DigiKey in the US at least:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.mc_id=hp_go_button&KeyWords=AT91SAM7X512&x=0&y=0

>
They don't have a huge number in stock though... I guess there's not yet that much demand for parts with this much flash and RAM?

>
How would any of you typically prototype with a device like this? Do you use a schmartboard or something similar?

> You could use a Schmart board - and if you only want to do one board, that might be the best way. However, I would do a custom PCB - 2 layer should be fine. Getting a single PCB done is still expensive; if the board is small and you only want one, Batch PCB seems like the best option; if the board is larger or you want multiple boards, there are better options. For 4 layer boards, I'd highly recommend Sierra Proto Express, but for a design without external memory, 2 layers should be enough.
>
> To give you an idea of pricing, Batch PCB is a straight $2.50 USD per square inch; at Proto Express, pricing in small quantities doesn't vary much with size (for < 30 square inches), and is about $85 for one 2-layer PCB, and $110 total for 3 PCBs -- so it doesn't make sense to buy less than 3 PCBs from them. Pricing at most other fab houses is similar -- multiple boards are a much better value than one.
>

Thanks for the tips, I'll check out those services. Advanced Circuits also has a deal for 2-layer boards at $33 each (min qty 4, plus a free board) for a max size of 60 square inches:
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130

The were friendly and helpful for my first board design (for a sensor) that I did recently.

> BTW, at least in the US, low volume (<25) assembly is quite pricey; it'll cost more than the components. That's why there are laser-cut stencils and toaster ovens (Sparkfun has some great resources on designing and assembling PCBs).

I've not used stencils before, but perhaps I should look into it. After actually doing some boards for a project at work, I've realized it isn't actually all that bad. So, between getting small numbers of boards for $30-40 each and maybe doing my own assembly I don't have as many excuses (except for having too many main and side projects open at the moment) not to experiment with at least some simple prototypes :-)

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
[hidden email]
http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
ph: (847) 448-0386

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Tony-12

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by John Hind

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:16 PM, James Snyder <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for the tips, I'll check out those services. Advanced Circuits also has a deal for 2-layer boards at $33 each (min qty 4, plus a free board) for a max size of 60 square inches:
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130

The were friendly and helpful for my first board design (for a sensor) that I did recently.

If you're happy with them, I'd say stick with them as your default PCB fab house.

BTW, I'm curious what software others are using for PCB design. Are you using Advanced Circuits' PCB Artist? I'm using Eagle PCB (free at home, full at work).

> BTW, at least in the US, low volume (<25) assembly is quite pricey; it'll cost more than the components. That's why there are laser-cut stencils and toaster ovens (Sparkfun has some great resources on designing and assembling PCBs).

I've not used stencils before, but perhaps I should look into it. After actually doing some boards for a project at work, I've realized it isn't actually all that bad. So, between getting small numbers of boards for $30-40 each and maybe doing my own assembly I don't have as many excuses (except for having too many main and side projects open at the moment) not to experiment with at least some simple prototypes :-)

Doing a PCB with large fine pitch chips (e.g. QFP-208) is time consuming and requires someone with experience. Smaller chips with larger pads should be a lot easier. Search Sparkfun for stencil info -- there's a company that makes low cost laser cut stencils (not professional quality, but good enough for hobby use) but they don't really advertise that capability.

--Tony

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by John Hind

----- "Tony" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:16 PM, James Snyder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

>
>
>
Thanks for the tips, I'll check out those services. Advanced Circuits also has a deal for 2-layer boards at $33 each (min qty 4, plus a free board) for a max size of 60 square inches:
> http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130
>
> The were friendly and helpful for my first board design (for a sensor) that I did recently.
>

> If you're happy with them, I'd say stick with them as your default PCB fab house.
>
> BTW, I'm curious what software others are using for PCB design. Are you using Advanced Circuits' PCB Artist? I'm using Eagle PCB (free at home, full at work).

I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at work I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working with someone who was familiar with it.

I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components, and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic and board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open export format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).

I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just pull descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for gEDA here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much breadth as would be nice.

I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs to production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
[hidden email]
http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
ph: (847) 448-0386

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Andreas Krinke

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

James Snyder wrote:

> I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at work
> I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working with
> someone who was familiar with it.
>
> I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however
> Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components,
> and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware
> version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua
> Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic and
> board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open export
> format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for
> something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open
> hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).
>
> I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description
> files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there
> were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just pull
> descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for gEDA
> here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much
> breadth as would be nice.
>
> I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs to
> production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.

You might want to have a look at kicad [1] (GPL).

[1] http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/

Regards,
Andreas
_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

I'd like to thank whoever it was pointed us to "SchmartBoard" as this seems
a good solution for prototypes. They even have an innovative method of
hand-soldering BGA chips! However their products only go down to 0.5mm for
QFP and 1mm for BGA, which rules out some of the ARM chips, notably the
STR912FAW44.

Indeed the good folk at SchmartBoard do custom products so could we get them
to make us a board with their groove technology which could then be
hand-assembled by hobbyists?

I've emailed to ask and will inform the group of any reply.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elua-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andreas Krinke
> Sent: 24 June 2009 14:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>
> James Snyder wrote:
> > I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at
> work
> > I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working
> with
> > someone who was familiar with it.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however
> > Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components,
> > and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware
> > version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua
> > Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic
> and
> > board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open
> export
> > format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for
> > something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open
> > hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).
> >
> > I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description
> > files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there
> > were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just
> pull
> > descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for
> gEDA
> > here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much
> > breadth as would be nice.
> >
> > I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs
> to
> > production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.
>
> You might want to have a look at kicad [1] (GPL).
>
> [1] http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

marcoxx

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by John Hind

Hi

I think that the concept of Lua Stamp, a single chip with Lua embedded could be great.
My interest when find eLua was this: a single chip with peripherical that could be used with other glue logic to build a system.
I see possibilities in industrial and home automation. consumer devices and others.
A simiIar initiative is .net micro framework ( http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/about/default.mspx )but is a proprietary (ms) and a black box.
Thanks
Mars

On Qua 24/06/09 10:37 , James Snyder [hidden email] sent:

----- "Tony" wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:16 PM, James Snyder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

>
>
>
Thanks for the tips, I'll check out those services. Advanced Circuits also has a deal for 2-layer boards at $33 each (min qty 4, plus a free board) for a max size of 60 square inches:
> http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130
>
> The were friendly and helpful for my first board design (for a sensor) that I did recently.
>

> If you're happy with them, I'd say stick with them as your default PCB fab house.
>
> BTW, I'm curious what software others are using for PCB design. Are you using Advanced Circuits' PCB Artist? I'm using Eagle PCB (free at home, full at work).

I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at work I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working with someone who was familiar with it.

I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components, and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic and board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open export format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).

I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just pull descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for gEDA here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much breadth as would be nice.

I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs to production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
[hidden email]
http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
ph: (847) 448-0386

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

In reply to this post by Andreas Krinke

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:38 PM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd like to thank whoever it was pointed us to "SchmartBoard" as this seems
a good solution for prototypes. They even have an innovative method of
hand-soldering BGA chips! However their products only go down to 0.5mm for
QFP and 1mm for BGA, which rules out some of the ARM chips, notably the
STR912FAW44.

Fortunately, the STR912FAW44 also comes in a LQFP package, which saves the day just in time :)

Best,
Bogdan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andreas Krinke
> Sent: 24 June 2009 14:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>

> James Snyder wrote:
> > I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at
> work
> > I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working
> with
> > someone who was familiar with it.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however
> > Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components,
> > and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware
> > version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua
> > Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic
> and
> > board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open
> export
> > format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for
> > something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open
> > hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).
> >
> > I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description
> > files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there
> > were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just
> pull
> > descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for
> gEDA
> > here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much
> > breadth as would be nice.
> >
> > I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs
> to
> > production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.
>
> You might want to have a look at kicad [1] (GPL).
>
> [1] http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

You’re right (again!). I do not think the ‘L’ makes any difference, but the 80 pin version seems to be 0.5mm pitch while the 128 pin is 0.4. This might swing it given you already have a port for this chip! Are we close to a network driver for this chip?

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bogdan Marinescu
Sent: 24 June 2009 19:06
To: eLua Users and Development List
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:38 PM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Fortunately, the STR912FAW44 also comes in a LQFP package, which saves the day just in time :)

Best,
Bogdan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andreas Krinke
> Sent: 24 June 2009 14:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>

> James Snyder wrote:
> > I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at
> work
> > I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working
> with
> > someone who was familiar with it.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however
> > Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components,
> > and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware
> > version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua
> > Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic
> and
> > board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open
> export
> > format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for
> > something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open
> > hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).
> >
> > I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description
> > files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there
> > were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just
> pull
> > descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for
> gEDA
> > here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much
> > breadth as would be nice.
> >
> > I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs
> to
> > production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.
>
> You might want to have a look at kicad [1] (GPL).
>
> [1] http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

No! I was right this time! To get Ethernet, you need to go to the 128 pin at 0.4mm. However, I’ve just noticed how reasonable the STR9-comSTICK is ... might be time to get the credit card out and actually do something ...

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Hind
Sent: 24 June 2009 20:47
To: 'eLua Users and Development List'
Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:38 PM, John Hind <[hidden email]> wrote:

Fortunately, the STR912FAW44 also comes in a LQFP package, which saves the day just in time :)

Best,
Bogdan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]

> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andreas Krinke
> Sent: 24 June 2009 14:44
> To: eLua Users and Development List
> Subject: Re: [eLua-dev] Single Chip Lua Prospects
>

> James Snyder wrote:
> > I'm using Eagle as well (free at home). The recent design I did at
> work
> > I actually used an older version of TraxMaker because I was working
> with
> > someone who was familiar with it.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind using one of the open source tools out there, however
> > Eagle works quite well and has a nice built-in library of components,
> > and I don't see myself going beyond the constraints of the freeware
> > version for hobby projects soon. If we do an open design for a Lua
> > Stamp, I'm not sure what would be the best choice for the schematic
> and
> > board layout. I don't see that Eagle supports any sort of open
> export
> > format (I guess the gerber files are, but that's not really ideal for
> > something people can pick up and modify), and a lot of other "open
> > hardware" projects do just use Eagle (Arduino for example).
> >
> > I _really_ wish that the schematic, board layout and part description
> > files were were done in some sort of open format, and also that there
> > were some sort of repository for part libraries that one could just
> pull
> > descriptions from automatically. There is something like this for
> gEDA
> > here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ although it doesn't have as much
> > breadth as would be nice.
> >
> > I know that some people do use gEDA for laying out and sending PCBs
> to
> > production, but I think the numbers are on the small side.
>
> You might want to have a look at kicad [1] (GPL).
>
> [1] http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Elua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

Re: Single Chip Lua Prospects

I have had an exchange of emails with Neal Greenberg at Schmartboard regarding the possibility of their doing a custom board using their technology for hand-solderable surface-mount.

Basically they can and will do custom boards and they can go down to 0.4mm pitch for QFP packages (the minimum they do for their standard products is 0.5mm pitch). However the minimum economic quantity is 100 and even at that he was unsure if we could get a target price of $10, which I set as a benchmark. He thought that might be reachable for a simple board in 500 – 1000 board quantities.

Anyone interested in this as an option? It would enable a design to be supplied in kit form (either just a board or a full kit of parts) for hand-assembly at hobbyist/educational level. My own feeling is that the quantities sink this – at these volumes it would probably be more economical to get professional assembly on a standard technology board. In any case, I’ve just ordered an STR9-comSTICK which is amazingly good value at 39 euros!

_______________________________________________
Elua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev