(OT) PCB design software

[Patrick-11]

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to
get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA
software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading
conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with
the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another
application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[BogdanM]

The freeware version of Eagle is the best I tried. Then again, I'm not at all a PCB expert.

Best,
Bogdan

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Fernando Araújo]

Hello Patrick!

You can try Eagle CAD (www.cadsoftusa.com), It has a free version with only board size limitations and is ideal for small projects with reasonably low complexity. It also has versions for unix and windows.

Best,
--
Fernando Araujo

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 09:55, Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Euripedes Rocha]

I had used eagle a lot in my projects, but now I'm using kicad, and I use eagle just to get the libraries and translate it to kicad. I can help you with both if you want. In kicad I have less experience but it seems better software than eagle. Autoplace works well, I've not used the auto router  to much and I don't make gerbers yet, but it's far better to draw schematics.

Best regards

Euripedes

--- Em seg, 5/4/10, Patrick <[hidden email]> escreveu:

De: Patrick <[hidden email]>
Assunto: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)" <[hidden email]>
Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 12:55

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

---

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Fernando Araújo]

As my grandma used to say: "Never trust an autorouter."

 

I'm actually using Altium in my projects but never used KiCad intensively. Autorouter generally takes a lot of time to configure the rules, and I never got decent rules to the point of trusting a program do these so delicate tasks. =)

 

Best,

--Fernando Araujo

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[BogdanM]

2010/4/5 Fernando Araújo <[hidden email]>

As my grandma used to say: "Never trust an autorouter."

Your grandma is a very, very wise person :) I never used autorouters myself, they generally produce extremely bad results.

Best,
Bogdan

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Euripedes Rocha]

I guess autoplacer/autorouter are very helpfull in small projects. My experience with the routers is that they work fine if you put the components in the right place. I generally use a combination of automatic tools and hand work. But it's personal. My grandma says that the best tool is that one you know to use better. :)

--- Em seg, 5/4/10, Bogdan Marinescu <[hidden email]> escreveu:

De: Bogdan Marinescu <[hidden email]>
Assunto: Re: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)" <[hidden email]>
Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 14:38

2010/4/5 Fernando Araújo <freecky@...>

As my grandma used to say: "Never trust an autorouter."

Your grandma is a very, very wise person :) I never used autorouters myself, they generally produce extremely bad results.

Best,
Bogdan

-----Anexo incorporado-----

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

---

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Patrick-11]

Thanks very much Guys, I am going to give Kicad a try-Patrick

Euripedes Rocha wrote:

> I guess autoplacer/autorouter are very helpfull in small projects. My
> experience with the routers is that they work fine if you put the
> components in the right place. I generally use a combination of
> automatic tools and hand work. But it's personal. My grandma says that
> the best tool is that one you know to use better. :)
>
> --- Em *seg, 5/4/10, Bogdan Marinescu /<[hidden email]>/*
> escreveu:
>
>
>     De: Bogdan Marinescu <[hidden email]>
>     Assunto: Re: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
>     Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)"
>     <[hidden email]>
>     Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 14:38
>
>     2010/4/5 Fernando Araújo <[hidden email]
>     </mc/compose?to=[hidden email]>>
>
>         As my grandma used to say: "Never trust an autorouter."
>
>
>     Your grandma is a very, very wise person :) I never used
>     autorouters myself, they generally produce extremely bad results.
>
>     Best,
>     Bogdan
>
>
>     -----Anexo incorporado-----
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     eLua-dev mailing list
>     [hidden email] </mc/compose?to=[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10
> <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/>
> - Celebridades
> <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/celebridades/>
> - Música
> <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/m%C3%BAsica/>
> - Esportes
> <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/esportes/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> eLua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>  

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Tony-12]

My recommendation is Eagle PCB.  I've used the free version for a number
of simple PCBs for myself, and have the full version at work.    Eagle
has a lot of on-line resources (e.g. the Sparkfun tutorials and
libraries), plus I have friends who are quite experienced with it.

But you need to see what works for yourself.  When I get time (ha, ha!)
I'll give KiCAD and gEDA a try.

Autorouting works fine for simple projects (e.g. two layer board with no
critical signals) or for parts of a bigger project.  But certain signal
types (e.g. analog, high speed buses) basically need hand routing.

AFAIK, Altium doesn't have a free version, and the commercial price tag
is $4K.  I'm also skeptical about their overall approach (they seem very
FPGA oriented, and want to be a single tool for everything: schematic
capture, PCB layout, VHDL/Verilog, and software development (C/C++),
which simply doesn't match my approach).

--Tony

On 4/5/2010 5:55 AM, Patrick wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!
>
> I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order
> to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA
> software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software
>
> I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading
> conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.
>
> Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files
> with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there
> another application that is commonly being used with list members?
>
> Thanks in advance-Patrick
> _______________________________________________
> eLua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Ronan Paixão]

I stick to Eagle, which has a free version and if I ever need, the Pro version is very affordable, comparing to other vendors. Also, there are many places to find components available for it.

I have tried gEDA some time ago, but found it too cumbersome and lacking in components. When I tried, I had to guess or just know the name of the file for package for my component, with no way to simply match them when choosing the component. Also, the layout program was not the same as for the schematic capture, which meant dealing with netlists that didn't autoupdate when new components were added/removed from the schematic. All that eagle does (though I don't now how the newer gEDA versions are).

Eagle's autorouter is quite poor in my opinion, and I always manage to do better by hand-routing, specially because I can change components' place when manually routing. Eagle has no autoplace tool.

Ronan

2010/4/5 Tony <[hidden email]>

My recommendation is Eagle PCB.  I've used the free version for a number of simple PCBs for myself, and have the full version at work.    Eagle has a lot of on-line resources (e.g. the Sparkfun tutorials and libraries), plus I have friends who are quite experienced with it.

But you need to see what works for yourself.  When I get time (ha, ha!) I'll give KiCAD and gEDA a try.

Autorouting works fine for simple projects (e.g. two layer board with no critical signals) or for parts of a bigger project.  But certain signal types (e.g. analog, high speed buses) basically need hand routing.

AFAIK, Altium doesn't have a free version, and the commercial price tag is $4K.  I'm also skeptical about their overall approach (they seem very FPGA oriented, and want to be a single tool for everything: schematic capture, PCB layout, VHDL/Verilog, and software development (C/C++), which simply doesn't match my approach).

--Tony

On 4/5/2010 5:55 AM, Patrick wrote:

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Fernando Araújo]

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 16:18, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:

My recommendation is Eagle PCB.  I've used the free version for a number of simple PCBs for myself, and have the full version at work.    Eagle has a lot of on-line resources (e.g. the Sparkfun tutorials and libraries), plus I have friends who are quite experienced with it.

Exact! This really comes in hand. Making libraries from the start are really a pain.
 

But you need to see what works for yourself.  When I get time (ha, ha!) I'll give KiCAD and gEDA a try.

Autorouting works fine for simple projects (e.g. two layer board with no critical signals) or for parts of a bigger project.  But certain signal types (e.g. analog, high speed buses) basically need hand routing.

You can autoroute simple projects but you will definitely have to fix a bunch of mistakes the autorouter will do. They always do. I just makes an initial approach to a project simpler. I like to use autorouter for single signals when the complexity is higher and then fix the mistakes.
 

AFAIK, Altium doesn't have a free version, and the commercial price tag is $4K.  I'm also skeptical about their overall approach (they seem very FPGA oriented, and want to be a single tool for everything: schematic capture, PCB layout, VHDL/Verilog, and software development (C/C++), which simply doesn't match my approach).

You are right. Altium is really oriented for FPGA projects. It's preatty clear when you look its library of components. It also has a simulator (for fpga and embbeded systems in general) that I never used. It's really a big program, full of functionalities. Some of them you probably will never use. In PCB projects it is very easy to make boards and Altium rarely will let you do any kind of mistake. Also, it has far more pcb functionaties than eagle.

There is a demo available with full functionalities for a period of 1 month. But I don't advise Altium for first time pcb projects or simple projects.

Best,
--Fernando Araujo

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Fernando Araújo]

2010/4/5 Ronan Paixão <[hidden email]>

I stick to Eagle, which has a free version and if I ever need, the Pro version is very affordable, comparing to other vendors. Also, there are many places to find components available for it.

I have tried gEDA some time ago, but found it too cumbersome and lacking in components. When I tried, I had to guess or just know the name of the file for package for my component, with no way to simply match them when choosing the component. Also, the layout program was not the same as for the schematic capture, which meant dealing with netlists that didn't autoupdate when new components were added/removed from the schematic. All that eagle does (though I don't now how the newer gEDA versions are).

Eagle's autorouter is quite poor in my opinion, and I always manage to do better by hand-routing, specially because I can change components' place when manually routing. Eagle has no autoplace tool.

Ronan

I stick to Eagle too. The only problem with its autorouter is that you have to make sure it doesn't use components pads as vias. It's far difficult to find plated holes in homemade projects.

Best,
--Fernando Araujo

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[chrisgr99]

What's most commonly use in the open hardware community is Eagle
Light.  http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm  The basic version is free.

- Chris

2010/4/5 Fernando Araújo <[hidden email]>:

> 2010/4/5 Ronan Paixão <[hidden email]>
>>
>> I stick to Eagle, which has a free version and if I ever need, the Pro
>> version is very affordable, comparing to other vendors. Also, there are many
>> places to find components available for it.
>>
>> I have tried gEDA some time ago, but found it too cumbersome and lacking
>> in components. When I tried, I had to guess or just know the name of the
>> file for package for my component, with no way to simply match them when
>> choosing the component. Also, the layout program was not the same as for the
>> schematic capture, which meant dealing with netlists that didn't autoupdate
>> when new components were added/removed from the schematic. All that eagle
>> does (though I don't now how the newer gEDA versions are).
>>
>> Eagle's autorouter is quite poor in my opinion, and I always manage to do
>> better by hand-routing, specially because I can change components' place
>> when manually routing. Eagle has no autoplace tool.
>>
>> Ronan
>>
>
> I stick to Eagle too. The only problem with its autorouter is that you have
> to make sure it doesn't use components pads as vias. It's far difficult to
> find plated holes in homemade projects.
>
> Best,
> --Fernando Araujo
>
> _______________________________________________
> eLua-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
>
>

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Rafael Barmak]

Patrick, you should give a try using Altium Designer if you are looking for peace of mind!

You can trial for 1 month for free and then another 1 month with another email account and so on...yeah pain in the ...
But 100x faster designs than with eagle! And I used eagle a lot ! And I am a fan of eagle... but Altium changed my life. I am a better person now, girls look at me differently, dogs don't bark anymore when I cross the streets...

Good luck!
Rafa Barmak

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks very much Guys, I am going to give Kicad a try-Patrick

Euripedes Rocha wrote:

I guess autoplacer/autorouter are very helpfull in small projects. My experience with the routers is that they work fine if you put the components in the right place. I generally use a combination of automatic tools and hand work. But it's personal. My grandma says that the best tool is that one you know to use better. :)

--- Em *seg, 5/4/10, Bogdan Marinescu /<[hidden email]>/* escreveu:


   De: Bogdan Marinescu <[hidden email]>
   Assunto: Re: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
   Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)"
   <[hidden email]>
   Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 14:38

   2010/4/5 Fernando Araújo <[hidden email]
   </mc/compose?to=[hidden email]>>

       As my grandma used to say: "Never trust an autorouter."


   Your grandma is a very, very wise person :) I never used
   autorouters myself, they generally produce extremely bad results.

   Best,
   Bogdan


   -----Anexo incorporado-----

   _______________________________________________
   eLua-dev mailing list
   [hidden email] </mc/compose?to=[hidden email]>
   https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/> - Celebridades <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/celebridades/> - Música <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/m%C3%BAsica/> - Esportes <http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/esportes/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev
 

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[jbsnyder]

I would echo the suggestion towards using Eagle. The freeware version is limited, but it has been flexible enough for most of the projects I've used it for.

I didn't know about being able to translate libraries to kicad.  That makes trying out KiCad quite a bit more interesting.  It would be great to have some sort of general database for components somewhere that one could automatically pull components from to any of these.  Perhaps I've just missed something, but I've always found digging around for some component that's not in your library and then having to create it yourself to be rather time consuming. (sorry to push this even more OT ;-) )

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Euripedes Rocha <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had used eagle a lot in my projects, but now I'm using kicad, and I use eagle just to get the libraries and translate it to kicad. I can help you with both if you want. In kicad I have less experience but it seems better software than eagle. Autoplace works well, I've not used the auto router  to much and I don't make gerbers yet, but it's far better to draw schematics.

Best regards

Euripedes

--- Em seg, 5/4/10, Patrick <[hidden email]> escreveu:

De: Patrick <[hidden email]>
Assunto: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)" <[hidden email]>
Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 12:55

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

---

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
[hidden email]
PGP: http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
Phone: [phone]

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

[Euripedes Rocha]

If you want to use kicad, you can easily translate a library with this ulp. Just open the library you want on kicad and translate it.

Best

Euripedes
--- Em ter, 6/4/10, James Snyder <[hidden email]> escreveu:

De: James Snyder <[hidden email]>
Assunto: Re: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)" <[hidden email]>
Data: Terça-feira, 6 de Abril de 2010, 16:05

I would echo the suggestion towards using Eagle. The freeware version is limited, but it has been flexible enough for most of the projects I've used it for.

I didn't know about being able to translate libraries to kicad.  That makes trying out KiCad quite a bit more interesting.  It would be great to have some sort of general database for components somewhere that one could automatically pull components from to any of these.  Perhaps I've just missed something, but I've always found digging around for some component that's not in your library and then having to create it yourself to be rather time consuming. (sorry to push this even more OT ;-) )

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Euripedes Rocha <euripedesrocha@...> wrote:

I had used eagle a lot in my projects, but now I'm using kicad, and I use eagle just to get the libraries and translate it to kicad. I can help you with both if you want. In kicad I have less experience but it seems better software than eagle. Autoplace works well, I've not used the auto router  to much and I don't make gerbers yet, but it's far better to draw schematics.

Best regards

Euripedes

--- Em seg, 5/4/10, Patrick <spell_gooder_now@...> escreveu:

De: Patrick <spell_gooder_now@...>
Assunto: [eLua-dev] (OT) PCB design software
Para: "eLua Users and Development List (www.eluaproject.net)" <elua-dev@...>
Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Abril de 2010, 12:55

Hi Everyone

I am talking with eLua on my LM3S8962 board now, thanks to all!

I was thinking about designing little daughter cards for it in order to get some practice designing a bigger one. I was looking into EDA software but there is so much to choose from, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

I would really like to use an open source application but I am reading conflicting reports about gEDA, Kicad etc.

Is there one that you think better? I would love to exchange files with the eLua community later, even if it is proprietary is there another application that is commonly being used with list members?

Thanks in advance-Patrick
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

---

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
jbsnyder@...
PGP: http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
Phone: [phone]

-----Anexo incorporado-----

_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
eLua-dev@...
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev

---

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
_______________________________________________
eLua-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/elua-dev