http://elua-development.15.s1.nabble.com/Mixed-arm-and-thumb-code-tp2537643p2550493.html
The reason most people (me included) don't remember stuff about make is because not vary many people spend time writing build scripts.
You're right, but IMO there's a level beyond this, a more philosophical one, that takes into account the overall design principles and usability features of the tool. And this is not dependent on how much time you spend using that tool, it's more a feeling you get when using it, something that comes from intuition (which in turn comes mostly from your own personal experience, so there's not such thing as a single universal truth in this area).
The tabbing does not bother me. At least not as much as pythons tabbing issues. A proper text editor will handle it for you anyway these days.
Touche on the Python tabbing. Still, I somehow like Python much more than I like make. Yes, I know they're very different tools, but once again I'm talking about the feeling I get by using each of them.
As for not being able to do something with make that you can do with sconstruct, I highly doubt its due to any lacking features of make. Its more likely due to the level of familiarity you have with make vs python/scons. If make were as inflexible as you say, I highly doubt a build as complex as the Linux kernel would use it.
I don't recall ever saying that make is inflexible. If I did, I have to apologize, because I find make one of the most flexible tools I ever encountered. But its flexibility comes at the price of expresivity and user friendliness (or, in other words, the sheer beauty of the language :) ) IMO. A price that some people (me included) aren't willing to pay unless they absolutely have to. If we were to follow the same principle in programming, we'd probably have to use C and nothing else, since it's such a flexible language. In the end, everybody needs to find his own balance and decide on the tool he finds most suitable for his own needs and preferences. It's always good to be able to make a choice.
For instance, scons seems to lack good support for directory recursion, and directory level build rules, unless you hack on it quite a bit. I once rewrote the eLua build system to factor out all the build rules into separate sconstruct files (I *HATE* long file lists with directory garbage in them), it was an immense task that could have been done extremely simply in make.
I think you can do that simpler in scons too, but I might be wrong. I do recall some quite simple scons scripts that dealt with recurssion somewhere in the internet :)
I have in the past spent enough time as a build manager of large projects to realize that there truly is nothing as powerful as make in existence.
That's the kind of statement that I generally find "too absolute" to be reasonable, but maybe you have indeed a vast experience with _lots_ of different build systems and tools. I only tried make combined with automake/autoconf (and I completely dislike them for the same reasons I dislike make), cmake (just a quick sip), some strange system based on DOS batch files :), and that's it (with the exception of scons, obviously).
You might want to pair something with it, like automake/autoconf or rubys make file generating tools, but I have yet to find a tool as simple (and as small!) as make.
Lua ? (I know, I know, I'm just being mean here :) ). I won't argue with the "small" part, but "small" is simply not something I'm after in a build tool.
Please understand that I'm not trying to convince you that make is a bad tool, because I don't believe that. I'm just answering to your "why do you hate make" question. And I'm stating this because I don't want to start yet another religious war, although it would be a first for our mailing list :)
Best,
Bogdan
PS. Hmmm ... sounds to me like you'd like to contribute a make-based build system to eLua ? :D
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Bogdan Marinescu
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, personally I have a simple rule: if I keep on forgetting stuff I learn about a tool, it's not good enough for me. With make, I could never remember $@, $?, $< and other syntax stuff. Not to mention that the whole tabbing thing drives me insane. This is reminescent of the old Unix days (somebody here ever tried to modify an old sendmail.cf file ? :), and frankly (besides their unquestionable place in history) I don't think too high of them, mainly because I find them counterproductive. It's the same reason I'll never get along with perl, for example. And the list could go on :) I think we're progressing towards better tools, and although they are far from perfect, I get along with them just fine. scons is an example of such tool for me. Plus, on the more practical side, I could never do the kind of scripting I do in SConstruct with make.
Best,
BogdanOn Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Mike Panetta
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Just a general question... Why do people hate make so much? Its extremely powerful and IMO easy(er) to use for dependency tracking build systems then any other language... Not to mention the fact that anyone that is already using GCC has gmake installed, where that can't be said about any other build tool...
Just my 0.02 currency units.
MikeOn Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Dado Sutter
<[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 16:44, Arnim Littek
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Under these circumstances I'd be questioning whether scons is the right tool
for the job. Tools are not there to make life difficult, and if one doesn't
work, it is time to find another. IMHO
Under the same philosophy of "doing the most we can in Lua", I've been checking the possibility of using
Hamster.
Asko is here in the list with us and is checking what went wrong with my first try on using it.
I'm not sure if it will solve this issue though, as Hamster is also based on scons.
Best
Dado
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